|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
   |
Posted - 2015.06.29 06:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
I was always and still am a big proponent of four-man squads (fireteams) in public matches.
Public matches should have a protectionist aspect to them that gives players and opportunity to familiarize themselves with the game and get those initial social hooks.
That said, to me the compromise to 4 man squads in public play was to implement team deploy in FW. Fireteams are coming to Pubs but only Squads of 8 are coming to FW. There is something wrong here.
Getting this close to team deploy in FW and then not getting it is extremely frustrating. I understand the desire to iterate and use caution, but this is an instance where the band-aid needs to be ripped off. Team Deploy has been a requested and clamored for feature in FW for years. We now have the tools to realize a dream of many many Dust players: the ability to deploy with a full team with little delay. PC matches in less than 24 hours will not be coming to PC at this time and team deploy in FW offers a fantastic alternative to a feature that may not be implemented for months.
Team Deploy will make the lives of those that already sync in Faction Warfare easier, yes, but it will accomplish so much more! A single instigator will be able to enable 15 players to socialize and play Dust together at the drop of a hat. Corporations will be able try out newer members by easily fielding them with vets in FW. Faction Warfare enthusiast will be able to truly organize their forces and move FW to a more concrete and substantial meta. Corporations will even be able to create a pseudo corp battle 2.0 system!
Also, the easier it is to sync the more syncs will be running and thus the number of quality matches in FW will further increase. Jump starting FW will go from a many hour affair to two individuals creating public platoons and gathering the forces needed to kick FW off which means more and more timezones will be able to enjoy a game mode that has been out of reach!!!
Again, I can understand and appreciate the hesitancy to directly implementing this feature off the bat, but the time is now for team deploy in FW. We've waited long enough, CCP, give us the tool to truly organize ourselves for immediate full team play!!!!!
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 06:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:I'm against any queuing system where full teams can go against not full teams. And making two separate FacWar queues doesn't help anyone. With any luck, we'll get a raiding mechanic that allows full team action with short notice in PC.
I like how your have abandoned you original support for team deploy, especially in light of the compromise of getting 4 man squads in public matches . Team deploy is something that the community has asked for a long long time.
In all honestly solo players can get their matches in pubs and organized groups of four or more can look forward to easily going into meaningful fights in FW. If a solo player is willing to take the risk of entering into a difficult game mode like FW then they take that risk on themselves.
Full teams already go against non full teams in FW and your logic only limits the ability of those players that aren't queue syncing to organize and provide opposition.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 08:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:I do support full TD in FW but I prefer the iterative approach we have to make sure we don't break something first. It's not a major problem in my eyes as we still have syncing that can be done. But there are other concerns as well with the final introduction of the fireteams, Squad and Platoon that I have which haven't been addressed yet. Namely WP unlock levels for each level of squad size.
A 16 man team will garner enough WP to a full OB in a matter of a couple of minutes, probably quicker. Going against another Platoon is fine, going against two squads with the same WP requirement for OB but less players is frankly stupid.
So first we need to determine a fair and scaled level of WP requirement for each size of 'squad'. For that we need data.
And this is exactly way it's full deploy in PC, Squads in FW and Fireteams in Pubs.
When the data is available then full TD in FW will happen with the correctly scaled OB requirements.
I'm sorry but the community has asked and waited for team deploy long enough. It's time to rip off the bandaid. There are times to throw caution to the wind and charge forward with progress. This is one of those times.
To put things in perspective here are threads dating back to 2012 asking for team deploy:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=231803
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=512586
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=390856
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=920479
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1104107
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=922358
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=85273
Original Dev intention of Team Deploy in FW: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1104074#post1104074
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=111664
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=116266
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=117177
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=116032
Devs working on team deploy: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1410067#post1410067
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=124987
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=123829
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=124992
Devs mentioning the desire the implement Team Deploy: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1559253#post1559253
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=126295
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=128200
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=128516
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133236
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133081
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=132343
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 09:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bright Cloud wrote:Soraya again beeing useless as expected. Do you know whats going to happend with 8 man squads? Do you? OBVIOUSLY NOT! What you seem to forget that there is a negative impact for FW if you dont give us team deploy. The people that did q-syncing will continue to do that but with 8 man squads (which is 50% of the team). So when one squad gets deployed and the other doesnt then the squad that gets deployed leaves the match and lets the 8 randoms hanging.
You are actively pushing to encourage that matches will start uneven. Cause then its not 16vs16 but rather 8vs16 which is a extreme disadvantage. And please elaborate where a solo playing scrub in FW ever made a difference cause those guys usually end up at the bottom of the scoreboard. Must be a bliss to be ignorant like some on the CPM.
16 man -qsyncs will still happend regardless what you think about it Soraya. All you achieve is beeing annoying for all partys involved.
While a bit harsh. I'd have to agree with the sentiments here. A failed queue sync makes for an even worse match when half the team leaves.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 09:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:It isn't time to rip off the band aid just yet. We need to get the scaling right on the OB's.
FW OB support is different from other OB's because the Eve pilots get faction LP. Full teams will gain the OB's faster meaning Eve pilots will be getting more LP or rather farming them for Factional Gear for sale in Eve for ISK. A business opportunity that I'm sure hasn't escaped someone's attention.
Huh? OBs from Eve are based on Time not WP.......
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 09:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
Reign Omega wrote:Bring back Corporate battles and none of this matters.
We get Platoons in FW and we basically have the return of Corp Battles. Two platoon leaders get on voice in a channel and select opposing factions, "3, 2, 1, GO!"
BOOM corp battles 2.0
This is another reason to not delay letting Platoons deploy into FW.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 10:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:I'm agnostic on Team deploy for FW. The desire is certainly there but the potential for imbalance is high, so dunno, tbh.
Regarding fairness in Pubs, 4 man squads are welcome but shared scans bear a huge chunk of the responsibility for poor player experience in Pubs. When people say 'protostomped' i believe what they're experiencing is the power of shared scan coupled with voicecomms.
The thing is team deploy has already been implemented in code it just lacks the UI and forces the manual q-sync we are all familiar with.
8 man squads won't stop groups like State Task Force, Lucent Echelon, or even Negative-Feedback from q-syncing. What it will do is prevent other players from being able to easily form their own teams to deploy that could directly challenge those syncs.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 10:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
I don't know about our groups but State Task Force can attest to our sync actively hunting them down. Our guys enjoy going against syncs as an instant redline really isn't that entertaining. Sometimes our syncs are full corp members and others it 's just friends that hang out in a channel togther.
Edgar, with platoons in FW you could very well gather up a group of folks using the squad finder and some of the faction channels to challenge the other syncs that may be out there.
Jadek, I've synced 32 people even in the current system and with 8 man squads that will be easier. People that want to do something nefarious will likely have the organization to do it whether it's 8 man squads or 16 man platoons. Not allowing the UI would just block those that may only have one person to organize the group from forming up a sync.
To me probably the most critical thing about having platoons in FW is that it would make it MUCH easier to jump start FW in the mornings to the point where we might be able to get FW going not too long after downtime.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 11:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
nelo kazuma wrote:Only real issue I see with this is the match making system .it be allot more data to comb through with 8 spots trying to find appropriate match for each sqd not to mention if lets say a 7n7 are on both sides the amount of data configuration required to fill those missing spots depends on the formula ccp uses for its matchmaking system. Only way this wouldnt cause a issue is if matching making went back to what is was and autofilled spots no matchmaking at all. (Which in my opinion doesnt matter anyway cuz its broke as hell right now anyway) so in closing yes I want 8 man sqds but current system needs to go if this is ever gonna work or if team deploy is ever a possibility we just dont have the high amount pf players for it to function right
There is no match making in FW only a team builder system that prioritizes players based on group size in a first-come-first-served basis.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 15:14:00 -
[10] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:Her Chosen wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:I'm against any queuing system where full teams can go against not full teams. And making two separate FacWar queues doesn't help anyone. With any luck, we'll get a raiding mechanic that allows full team action with short notice in PC. Factional is Null-Sec... Don't take Eden out of New Eden Factional is LOW sec. Dust does not currently have an existence in null sec. If we did have an existence in null sec it would be in PC not in FW. FW is not even null sec in Eve. As I pointed out above 16 man squads in FW would break things even worse than 8 man squads is going to. It is quite unfortunate that FW just gets the scraps of changes that fall over from other game modes.
Break it how? You can already deploy a full team to FW right now it's just gated behind a cumbersome methodology that limits team deploy to those that know how to execute it rather than it being as straightforward as "start platoon, deploy platoon". All you are doing by trying to limit platoons deploying to FW is protect the organized syncs that are already there!
More syncs in the mode means more competition in the mode! You will always have public play that offers full match making protection to smaller groups and solo players.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
|
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 15:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Again you mistake priority from an outright block. If there is a 14 man platoon deploy guess who would fill in the gaps?
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 16:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
Again, Aikuchi, a version of team deploy already exists in FW right now. I can go an put 16 man teams together and run FW with them. The problem is there is a fairly large barrier to getting that set up which means my q-sync gets to have free reign against all those that don't know how run a sync.
F.ex knowing that two 5 man squads and one 6 man squad make a more successful sync or that the timer when you deploy indicates if you got into the same match. Or things like that you can take 16 people currently and queue for two factions at once (Min/Ga or Cal/Amarr) etc.
These barriers have got to go. People think they are protecting folks but in actuality what they are doing is ensuring that the q-syncs today have LESS competition in the game mode.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 17:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
Look when it comes to team deploy in FW (low sec) this is what needs to be said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuHfVn_cfHU
Again, deezy, you are missing the whole point. We already have a small set of syncs. This is about liberating the sync to allow even those that don't know all the crazy things you have to do to make them work to execute. More syncs, more good fights.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 17:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:If they "DO IT" I will gladly pillage FW in exactly the way I described and there will not be a single thing any of you can do about it. Making me and only the people I choose the richest people in the game would be amazing. For clarity I know we would never reach the highest amounts of ISK but we would have the steadiest flow of massive ISK to be seen since corps first learned how to lock districts.
If you start a sync then others will to again the whole point. Right now you have a barrier to entry that limits the competition.
Seriously, if I have 1 sync what's the probability it will go against another? Now if I have 2? 3? 50? Get the picture?
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 18:05:00 -
[15] - Quote
Deezy, again you already have 16 man groups able to deploy. CCP coded in a workaround to make it happen long ago.
Why do you want to keep others from going against the already established q-syncs?
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 18:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote:Kain Spero wrote:Again you mistake priority from an outright block. If there is a 14 man platoon deploy guess who would fill in the gaps? Two people out of however many others who wanted to get in on a factional match, but can't because a corporation took up nearly an entire scoreboard and there aren't enough extras for a second battle to happen. Seriously. Eight man squads are fine. Other people want to play your game, too.
And if there 32 people waiting after that first match happens guess what? Another get's spun up. I find it funny people complaining about groups getting into a game mode that was specifically designed to give groups priority in getting into the game mode.
CCP FoxFour wrote:What we want to change it to though is an actual queueing system where you can take an entire team, click queue, and you wait until there is another team or enough players to make up a team queued and then we start a server for you. So if two full teams click go at near the same time it should near instantly start a battle.
That make sense?
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 18:28:00 -
[17] - Quote
Deezy you are straight wrong. With platoons in Fw you eliminate the need of being forced to sync by voice in a player created channel. You create a platoon, voice there, and deploy.
The more you talk it seems more likely you are trying to protect the few syncs that already exists rather than enabling the community to give them competition.
Your logic is completely flawed, so by democratizing the ability to create a q-sync and lowering the barrier to entry fewer people will be creating q-syncs?
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 18:40:00 -
[18] - Quote
Again, Deezy, you aren't seeing the big picture here. Would you not agree that we already have 16 man syncs in FW?
Those syncs ARE what's limited to the choosen few that know about faction warfare channels like PIE Ground Control, Chosen Matari, State Task Force, and Lucent Echelon. Right now you MUST create a player channel to have a sync or do it in corp chat.
With platoons in the finder though you could get a sync together from start to finish without having to say a world aloud. That's the problem right now. The barrier to entry is so high that you limit the number of groups able to successfully sync. Those limits need to be stripped away so the status quo is shifted AWAY from the chosen few that know how to run a sync to the masses that can use the finder to create challengers to those that already have established syncs.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 18:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
The simple fact is that disallowing full team deploy does nothing but harm those that aren't the well connected in FW.
Again the simple fact remains that more syncs equal more good fights. Public matches are being designed to cater to 4 man squads and solo players. It makes sense that FW caters to those that are in fireteams and above. Again the more syncs running means that those solo players will be the ones that fill the holes on the 13 and 15 man platoons.
FW was intentionally designed to give solo players longer queue times to encourage players to group up in a squad to engaged the game mode.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 19:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
Deezy you've already agreed that FW syncs are already in the system. There is no "breaking the system more" unless you are referring to solo players that shouldn't be in the system anyways and if they are they've taken the risk on themselves.
Again, allowing higher barriers to entry than other players that are more organized and have their own channels makes no sense.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
|
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 19:31:00 -
[21] - Quote
Piercing, again whether you like it or not 16 man syncs are already in the system all you are doing is limiting their competition, but restricting platoons.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.29 19:33:00 -
[22] - Quote
I have to agree with deezy here that NPC strikes largely need to go, but I would suggest keeping the flux strikes due to the high ground camping with links meta.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 01:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
True Adamance hit's the nail on the head. Public matches are designed with match making and soon four-man squads to cater to fireteams (4 man groups) and solo players.
FW deserves to be just as much of an end-game as Planetary Conquest. And those that want to experience group play in a game mode designed for it with friendly fire shouldn't be punished.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 02:22:00 -
[24] - Quote
If you have the knowledge and capability to squad and you choose not to in a game mode that was designed with the intent of catering to more and more organized players you have no one to blame but yourself.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 02:32:00 -
[25] - Quote
No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote:Kain Spero wrote:If you have the knowledge and capability to squad and you choose not to in a game mode that was designed with the intent of catering to more and more organized players you have no one to blame but yourself. I don't think you read my post. That's fine. It's a lot of **** to go through to build up to a small point. But please at least read the last two paragraphs.
Again the paranoia surrounding team deploy allowing a small group to take over FW is downright silly.
With the tools to sync easily and properly no matter your language and no matter if you have a mic or anything else means that the current sync groups will get outnumbered by those that are able to easily organize using the system.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 03:02:00 -
[26] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
These are players organising themselves into groups in 'LOW SECURITY SPACE'.....my god the sheer amount of tears that would flow if Dusters ever attempted to fly those systems EVE side with the sensibilities they currently have....
This made me lol. I just imagined a bunch of Duster war barges jumping through Amamake without a care in the world.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 03:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
The irony here is that Corp Battles 1.0 was FW.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 04:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
Deezy, except for no one that knows what their talking about is worried about matches actually occurring. The arguments that I've heard about team deploy is that there is concern that there will be instances of 16 vs 16 randoms or a variation there off.
If you are going to try and argue a point at least try to use a valid argument that takes into account with a rolling player population in FW of greater than two teams your problem doesn't exist.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 05:33:00 -
[29] - Quote
Mina Longstrike wrote:Kain Spero wrote:True Adamance hit's the nail on the head. Public matches are designed with match making and soon four-man squads to cater to fireteams (4 man groups) and solo players.
FW deserves to be just as much of an end-game as Planetary Conquest. And those that want to experience group play in a game mode designed for it with friendly fire shouldn't be punished. Just because its an 'end game' doesn't mean it should be relocated to those that can exploit it the best. It needs a reasonable point of entry that it currently does not have (and no, these changes aren't going to provide one - go try playing in a public squad sometime, people do not work together). I'd also like to point out that True Adamances words should be taken with a hefty grain of salt as he rarely logs in and almost never plays. I like you True, but you and aero both have a lot of negative traits, especially when it comes to complaining on the forums to get changes you'd 'like' for a game you can't even be said to really play.
I'm sorry but cries about exploits are truly unfounded because the system in effect already has team deploy minus the UI for it. Anything that can be exploited under platoons can already be done under q-syncing team deploy (even activities with 32 players) it just requires more effort.
I swear this is like people arguing about how bad DRM protects people when it does more to hurt the legit end users.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 08:00:00 -
[30] - Quote
SirManBoy wrote:Between pubs (ambush, dom, skirm, and acquisition) and FW we only have 5 instant match experiences in Dust and not one of them caters to team deployments. I find that totally unacceptable. And yet, now that the mechanic we need to change that situation is nigh, it's still has dissenters.
In my view, the only acceptable recompense for sacrificing 6-man pub squads across 4 match types is to get full 16-player team deploy in just one--FW.
I have to say that in light of squad sizes getting reduced in public matches which include 3 different game modes allow 1 game mode (FW skirmish) to be team deployment focused is more than reasonable.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
|
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 08:42:00 -
[31] - Quote
Again, you have public skirmish, public ambush, public domination, and public acquisition all protected by matchmaking and all having the addition of reduced squad sizes to four.
Having FW skirmish be geared more towards organized play is more than reasonable, Dennie, and something that has been clamored for in the community for years.
As for people leaving matches do you FW? We've already been deploying full teams of corp members and sometimes people leave and sometimes they don't, but the way the FW team builder is designed it will always fill up the team. Those that joined late don't get paid any less than those that stuck through the whole match. The more syncs you have the more likely they are to go against each other.
The FW teambuilder already does its best to place the largest groups at any given time against each other that are in the queue irrespective of those groups "quality" or MU.
You also have many syncs that are full of completely random groups of people. This is actually more of the norm rather than the rule. Probably one of the most important aspects here is that it allows members from corps across New Eden to play together and socialize. Also, redline matches are boring and they are not what's desired. State Task Force and Negative-Feedback have an ongoing friendly rivalry where we get excited when the other is syncing and do our best to try and fight each other.
Acting like we don't already have a form of team deploy in the system and that adding a UI for what players already do every day is ridiculous. Your position on this especially after compromises were made on the front of 4 man squads in pubs makes me feel that you are truly out of touch especially with the FW community.
Also, match leaving is a problem present in ALL game modes today. There is a reason removing the team list has been discussed of a of couple occasions and even touched on by CCP Rattati and leaving who you are fighting to the kill feed and the EOM screen.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 09:15:00 -
[32] - Quote
I was talking to SMB on this point this evening in-game actually. I think one potential solution would be to give players 40% reimbursement win or loose but make all of the salvage go to the winners similar to what was done with PC payouts.
The differential in LP should provide incentive to win along with the salvage while the ISK reimbursement would encourage players to go hard even In a loosing fight.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 13:24:00 -
[33] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:You can continue the line about us already having full teams as much as you want Kane. But there a psychological difference between going up again two squads of 6 and a four and a squad of 16.
Deploy it by all means.
But I still maintain that after a while they'll be calls for it to be reduced back to squads and Fireteams only for the reasons I specified.
And by the way saying ALL the community when less then 10% even post on the forums has always made an argument weaker in my eyes. You have to always take into account the vast majority that don't come here.
Except when I say all the community in my experience that's not only from the forums but from in-game as well ( you know, in-game, where most people actually are). Through basically every big faction warfare channel in the game active or now defunct whether it be Luxiferians Elite, State Task Force, Lucent Echelon, Chosen Matari, PIE Ground Control, LOLRoman's Boat, DUST OB Min/GAL, etc.
One thing that's been pretty universal is the desire to be able to deploy with a full team in a game mode that has friendly fire where things like awoxing and disruption of coms on occasion occur. It's also an issue of unleashing the social potential for Dust as well.
The real travesty here though seems to be that the notion of not having platoons in FW wasn't brought to the community before code lock occured in this patch. That definitely feels like an old CCP situation. Also if this has code lock and is being reviewed by Sony QA that means the PC numbers for things like CP and Districts have also been set without a further discussion in the community as was mentioned would occur.
A lack of community discussion on these fronts is a bit worrisome. 
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 14:55:00 -
[34] - Quote
Sure thing Thor:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1104074#post1104074
CCP FoxFour wrote:While CCP Nullarbor works on the new matchmaking system we are working on the design of an enhanced squads system that would let you queue entire teams for Factional Warfare. While it won't come out with the new matchmaking CCP Nullarbor is developing the new matchmaking to allow full team queueing for Factional Warfare.
The idea being that if you can take an entire team and queue for Factional Warfare you should allow you to go corp versus corp so long as you both have 2 full teams. Since there won't be that many full teams queueing at the same time if you want to fight a specific team you should be able to queue sync easily.
While this is obviously not perfect and only partially covers what you are seeking we feel it is a better first step in that direction as it covers more people and does more for the game. We can then look at actual corp versus corp again later.
Hope that helps! :D
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 16:28:00 -
[35] - Quote
Asad Thahab-Jabal wrote:I just came to the conversation but instead of a 16 man team, what about an implementation of a way to link (Q-Sync) several squads and not be one large 16 man squad. That way the ones requesting a better way to Q-Sync get their wish and the ones that want to solo/join matches get theres. Not all factions that fight are always full from the get-go.
With that being said, (like Local) create a chat channel that goes on everyone's comms for each faction or create a squad finder feature for each faction to assist the not-quite-16 man teams to fill gaps. Instead of being put into a que for a map...you are put in a que for a team.
Q-sync already exists and is the whole reason not allowing a 16 man group falls flat. Leaving the mechanics to just q-syncing means that only a select few that know how to operation the mechanic actually can execute a team deploy.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 18:17:00 -
[36] - Quote
Ah ok. Yeah I think that was one way there were going to go about it but the technical side got messy so large squads were implemented as a solution.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 01:04:00 -
[37] - Quote
Leither Yiltron wrote:
I said it in 2012, and it has been true for the 2.5 years since: If you leave communities without an easy-to-organize way to get into matches with a full team on short notice, those communities will atrophy and die. Looking at our corporate landscape, that's exactly what has happened.
Leither, you and I very rarely agree on things. In this instance I couldn't agree more.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 06:14:00 -
[38] - Quote
Actually, CCP did specifically set the FW team builder that allows teams to deploy minus the user interface. To put it simply the team builder for faction warfare gives priority to larger squads.
This simply priority is what allows for a set of squads of 6, 6, and 4 or squads of 5, 5, and 6 to deploy together into FW consistently with issues only arising if an equally large squad deploys at the same time as the sync (one of the extra squads subs out for one in the sync). Groups of 16 deploy with high success for hours on end with a few misfires over the course of syncing.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 08:33:00 -
[39] - Quote
The KTM DuKe wrote:Kain Spero wrote:Piercing, again whether you like it or not 16 man syncs are already in the system all you are doing is limiting their competition, but restricting platoons. So in a game in which there is no competition you want to limit it more? Go play barbie then
The exact opposite. By easing the ability to create full team deploys they will not be limited to a select few and thus the current syncs in the game will end up facing other syncs as well.
The more syncs in the system the higher the probability that they will themselves face another sync.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 09:04:00 -
[40] - Quote
Again Deezy, you've been told on several occasions that your logic is both inaccurate and flawed.
You can keep saying that team deploy will keep people that don't have 16 man platoons until you are blue in the face, but it won't make it true. Again, you make so many assumptions about what pairings will be present it's not even funny. Not to mention assumptions about total player population in faction warfare and don't even consider rolling population numbers or observational evidence that's been collected over the years that directly counters your, quite frankly, short sighted and somewhat moronic claims.
The 8 + 8 does actually screw over people that may not play in a main language, multi-lingual groups that would like to form unified teams, and players that probably RARELY come to the forums that don't even know that q-syncing is an actual thing that can be executed.
8+8 won't allow a team to be publicly broadcast so all can join. It won't solve the issue that a custom player channel or corp chat is REQUIRED to execute a sync.
This is about giving the faction warfare community the tools that they've be clamouring for for years and allowing the entire Dust community the ability to organize for themselves and easily make teams in an environment and game mode that allows instantaneous matches rather than being forced to only interact with some of the most important in-match social aspects through 24 hour minimum scheduling.
Again, you have 5 game modes that are free from scheduling and logistic burdens. Four of which have both match making that takes into account MU to build fair teams and will soon limit groupings to 4 or less players to further enhance that matchmaker.
Allowing 1 game mode out these 5 to be geared towards more organized play and teams is hardly onerous or unreasonable. This is especially given that many team deploy champions laid down their swords in limiting squad size in public matches with the understanding that team deploy would finally fully come to faction warfare.
CCP needs to allow the faction warfare community to finally realize it's many-year-in-the-making dream of team deploy in Faction Warfare Skirmish.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
|
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 10:53:00 -
[41] - Quote
Deezy, I'm not sure how many times it can be said that we already see the system operating and accommodating 16 man groups deploying and solo players being slotted into incomplete 16 man groups.
In your risk assessment I think you fail to realize one of the key benefits of team deploy to faction warfare, which is the ability to jump start faction warfare at earlier and earlier times, which leads to a snowball effect of more and more players having access to the mode.
You mention your experience with AmarrOne, but neglect the fact that team deployments that can be publicly broadcast in squad finder will allow even MORE players to find the exact experience you describe.
You need to check you paranoia at the door, take a step back, and realize the benefits that the ability to have a game space where organized play can happen instantly brings to the table. Especially when 80% of instant game modes already cater to solo players and small squads.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 11:42:00 -
[42] - Quote
Regis Blackbird wrote:Ok, can we all just stop this rather pointless discussion? Regardless if you are For or Against team deployment in the current implementation of FW, the fact remains that Warlords 1.2 is now at Sony QA, and is likely not going to change until release. To blame the CPM is also ludicrous since we have CPM members who are publicly advocating both for and against Team Deploy. This is ultimately a CCP decision regardless if we agree with it or not..., and they probably had good reasons why they choose not to include full 16 teams in FW. This might change, based on a earlier quote by CCP Rattati regarding team sizes: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2625732#post2625732
Until team deploy is implemented in the game the discussion will never be pointless since it is something that the community has wanted and desired for years as has been previously stated.
I can guarantee you that if the CPM had unanimously supported team deploy in faction warfare as CPM 0 had then it would have been in the game with 1.2. So, no the entire CPM is not to blame, but the holdouts (as can be seen in this thread) surely didn't help the case for team deploy in Faction Warfare being implemented in 1.2 off the bat.
Luckily, it seems that this change can be fixed server side, so this mistake can be corrected quickly and the spotlight needs to be shone on the situation until it is fixed.
Not only that, but the fact that the limitation of team deploy to Planetary Conquest occurred without a community discussion on the matter regarding 8 man squads is pretty surprising.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 11:47:00 -
[43] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:Hard to fill two "platoons" when the playerbase is so small (and declining).
Better focus those resources on a PC port.
Actually syncs happen everyday in FW and those that run the syncs are often the ones that are responsible for pushing back the start time of FW closer and closer right after down time.
I have to agree that Dust x86 needs to happen sooner rather than later.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 11:55:00 -
[44] - Quote
Deezy, I'm sorry but now your ignorance is truly showing.
From what CPM 1 members like Dennie has said they are being cautious. Again, since we already have team deploy in it's most basic form in Faction Warfare already there is no reason to NOT flip the switch.
Let team deploy out of the box and then if there are issues it seems that CCP more than has the capability to quickly address it. This is a case where using the Golidlocks method would actually prove useful since the scenario of team deploy is already occurring.
Again, part of CCP's caution was no doubt because of holdouts on the council that turned their backs on a compromise of letting team deploy occur in FW in light of reduced squad size in public matches.
As for the how and why it doesn't really matter only that this mistake is addressed and quickly.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 12:13:00 -
[45] - Quote
Again you are making assumptions about how teams are made in FW and coming to the conclusion that players will be left out. This has already been proven to not be the case when solo players are slotted into 14 man groups, 12 man groups, 10 man groups etc.
Also, trying to make out that this is a few people when easily the majority of FW players have been asking for team deploy is silly.
Lastly, trying to compare Planetary Conquest with Faction Warfare that has high barriers to entry and is forced on a 24 hour minimum schedule is laughable at best.
I guess the question comes down to if you already have 4 out 5 instant deployments geared towards solo and small group play how can you sit there are try to claim the 5th for yourself as well?
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 15:26:00 -
[46] - Quote
Sure there may be some syncs like that out there but I know that syncs like State Task Force, Lucent Echelon, and Negative-Feedback get excited when we realize it's a sync on the other side and ecstatic when we see a side with full corp tags that are the same.
Maybe we're the exception rather than the rule, but how about we get the tools in place to let others than the select few get a chance to experience deploying with a full team and see where things land? Not to mention with a full team deploy implementing penalties for leaving matches repeated could even be a possibility since you won't have the issue of squads leave because of a misfired sync.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.02 04:13:00 -
[47] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:thor424 wrote:
I usually get between 300 and 800 WP while syncing. Most people I play with have from 50 to 125 mil SP, I personally have right under 125 mil with 4 mil unallocated.
Nothing will change for NF with 4, 6, or 8 man squads, it'll just be more of a pain to do it.
I certainly don't know anyone who is going to spend $ to boost SP. A year ago, maybe.
I think the game needs persistent team deploy and FW is the best way to achieve it with the least amount of dev time. Maybe raiding becomes this, but either way team deploy is needed.
I am talking about people going into matches which are fully controlled by them so that everyone can run up a quick 7500 WP and move on to the next one. That's exactly what went on in PC for a long time. Persistent team deploy is exactly what raids are meant to be somewhere down the road. I can not wait as it will actually make PC interesting. Can you imagine logging in and hanging out with your corp to launch 10 - 20 raids through out the day just causing mayhem across Molden Heath? Now THAT is the team deploy we need. Fortunately that is what Ratatti seems to be trying to make possible.
Deezy again you fail to realize that this can already be done and the more syncs that are floating around the more difficult trying to control both sides becomes.
I'm sorry but "somewhere down the road" for persistent team deploy isn't acceptable. It also doesn't address that Team Deploy is something specifically desired for Faction Warfare.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.02 04:41:00 -
[48] - Quote
No, I said it's already possible. Yet it doesn't occur and would be made harder by the presence of more syncs if folks were to try it. Also CCP already put anit-boosting measures in place becuase of what happened in PC.
Your argument is about as sound as bad DRM policies.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.02 06:45:00 -
[49] - Quote
Deezy, again the issue is that adding team deploy doesn't create anything that can't be done already. It gives the power of team deploy to all players rather than a select few.
It's about improving the team play options at the same time the solo and small group options are improved (4 man fire teams in pubs).
Also, if you think just because CCP decides something it's the right course of action I have a bridge to sell you.
Attorney General, if you think the lack of 16 man platoons will stop the current syncs from continuing they you really have no idea what you are talking about.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.02 07:05:00 -
[50] - Quote
I gave more than a few reasons. Your objections have been shot down numerous times and now you are just grasping at straws.
Kain Spero wrote:I was always and still am a big proponent of four-man squads (fireteams) in public matches.
Public matches should have a protectionist aspect to them that gives players and opportunity to familiarize themselves with the game and get those initial social hooks.
That said, to me the compromise to 4 man squads in public play was to implement team deploy in FW. Fireteams are coming to Pubs but only Squads of 8 are coming to FW. There is something wrong here.
Getting this close to team deploy in FW and then not getting it is extremely frustrating. I understand the desire to iterate and use caution, but this is an instance where the band-aid needs to be ripped off. Team Deploy has been a requested and clamored for feature in FW for years. We now have the tools to realize a dream of many many Dust players: the ability to deploy with a full team with little delay. PC matches in less than 24 hours will not be coming to PC at this time and team deploy in FW offers a fantastic alternative to a feature that may not be implemented for months.
Team Deploy will make the lives of those that already sync in Faction Warfare easier, yes, but it will accomplish so much more! A single instigator will be able to enable 15 players to socialize and play Dust together at the drop of a hat. Corporations will be able try out newer members by easily fielding them with vets in FW. Faction Warfare enthusiast will be able to truly organize their forces and move FW to a more concrete and substantial meta. Corporations will even be able to create a pseudo corp battle 2.0 system!
Also, the easier it is to sync the more syncs will be running and thus the number of quality matches in FW will further increase. Jump starting FW will go from a many hour affair to two individuals creating public platoons and gathering the forces needed to kick FW off which means more and more timezones will be able to enjoy a game mode that has been out of reach!!!
Again, I can understand and appreciate the hesitancy to directly implementing this feature off the bat, but the time is now for team deploy in FW. We've waited long enough, CCP, give us the tool to truly organize ourselves for immediate full team play!!!!!
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
|
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.02 07:25:00 -
[51] - Quote
Your "drawbacks" in terms of destroying the ability to queue have been shown to be fantasy at best by a mathematician that you actually agreed with.
And if you actually bothered to read you would see that I said that the tools are already in place for team deploy through q-syncing and yet this massive exploiting doesn't exist. So you think everyone will wake up tomorrow and then try to execute exploits that aren't even possible with SP caps in matches, set LP payouts, and the creation of ISK through the destruction of BPOs already haven been addressed?
I'm sorry, but the sky isn't falling. You really should leave the tinfoil and paranoia at home.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.02 09:08:00 -
[52] - Quote
Juno you wouldn't be wrong that team deploy would get more people interested in the game mode.
Q-syncs would be available to all rather than the select few that run them now in corp or player-made channels.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.02 12:14:00 -
[53] - Quote
Tyrunis Bloodstone wrote:Wow, I would just ignore that deezy guy. He's just feeding off the back and forth negative side of things. How many times can someone make the same point, over and over and over again?
Well, if it keeps the thread on the first page I can't complain that much now can I? 
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.02 12:25:00 -
[54] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:To the second, please provide a point where I say that limiting team deploy to PC is done to stop q syncs. You can't, because I didn't say it. Stop trying to respond to a point with a different one.
You want to be able to farm easier. I get it, I think we all get it. You want a few button clicks and 32 people are fighting matches without organized opposition, and you don't have to even put in the effort to get a sync going.
You want CCP to gift wrap your LP for you becuase heaven forbid you have to put some work in to stomp the **** out of randoms.
Once again, since you clearly need it drilled into your mouth breathing skull: Why should CCP invest limited Dev resources into making your farming easier?
Again, Attorney, you show that you have no idea what you are talking about. If someone wanted to queue 32 people at once they could do that right now.
I can run a q-sync right now for hours on end with limited hassle due to my experience with the mechanic. Others are not so lucky. I want MORE syncs running, so our syncs will have stiffer competition and thus better fights.
Rather than talking from an obvious lack of experience you should join me on a q-sync and see how the system currently works. Would team deploy eliminate some of the hassle? Of course. If you think the lack of team deploy stops a dedicated sync, which you try indicate if your own post you probably need to eat some more brain food with your breakfast.
I actually look forward to our sync having more competition and better fights. Only through adversity do we rise above and better ourselves. If you don't think that's the case I just have to feel sorry for you and your small outlook on things.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.02 12:35:00 -
[55] - Quote
Deezy, that is exactly my point though.
I can sync and run 16 and you can sync and run 16 because we know how the mechanic works which has no in-game explanation and the only way to know you can execute it is through reading about it on the forums or from word--of-mouth.
8 + 8 will only make syncing easier for those that know about the mechanic. Not the players in the game that have no idea what q-syncing is. You try to say you are for the little guy and in the same breath try to take away his tools that would allow him to organize himself more easily and bootstrap his way into engaging the more well established groups in Faction Warfare.
Surely you can be so blind and short-sighted to NOT see this? A lack of tools only hurts the masses not those that have created their own in the current environment.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.02 12:53:00 -
[56] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Kain Spero wrote: Only through adversity do we rise above and better ourselves. If you don't think that's the case I just have to feel sorry for you and your small outlook on things. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the guy behind the Blue Donut? Don't forget corp wide MCC dipping way back. Kain has been a min maxer since day one, and he won't ever stop. He equates high wallet amounts with being good at dust because he can't hack it on the field.
Actually, if you had any idea what you were talking about you know I've gone out of my way on numerous occasions to shut down exploits, but keep outright lying between your teeth if that makes you feel better.
So rather than trying to attack me as a person do you have anything specific to add regarding the current discussion of introducing team deploy?
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.02 13:39:00 -
[57] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
1. If PC-level players want access to team deploy and better fights around the clock, why does that demand have to be met by FW? Why not instead open up around-the-clock raids so PC-level play can be found on demand?
2. What mechanics would prevent the risk-free farming of FW by 32-man q-syncs?
3. Assume a newbro with no in-game connections or knowledge of the Forums wishes to earn an APEX suit through FW participation. To save Isk. Walk me through how he will meet that goal in a FW setting which supports Team Deploy.
4. What mechanics would prevent an oddly shaped block (say 5 players) from queuing for FW and remaining stuck in that queue indefinitely?
5. Why the big rush? What specific downsides are there to test-driving 8-man support first?
First off thanks, Adipem. I'll do my best to answer from my perspective.
1.
It has more to do with players outside of PC though. You have very dedicated faction warfare players that are just as dedicated as planetary conquest players. I think that raids are going to be essential long-term for PC, but they aren't even off the backlog at this point. Really though i think FW deserves as much of a chance to be an end-game as PC.
2.
For starters boredom and secondly there are already mechanics in place that clamp down on boosting behavior (No SP gain after X WP). Plus a match can only end so quickly and the LP payouts are a static number. Plus there is nothing you can do with 16 man team deploy that you wouldn't be able to do with 8 man squads so in an attempt to stop a perceived threat raised by 32 players you don't actually put in any barrier and negatively impact those that would engage the game mode in a legitimate fashion.
In effect it comes out like bad DRM having a negative impact on legitimate consumers while doing nothing to stop those potentially engaging in negative activity. CCP has been taking a much tougher stance on boosting and can monitor match behavior. I'm sure this kind of behavior could be pretty easy to detect on CCP's end and those doing it dealt with accordingly.
3.
Newbro opens up squad finder and sees a platoon sitting at 14/16 and joins. Alternatively a newbro creates his own platoon and sets it to broadcast.
4.
Leither would explain this better than I. It has to do with queueing theory ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory ). It's the same reason that things like 3 man squads get slotted into FW battles currently. You have a rolling population made up of a variety of numbers and the team builder combines those like lego pieces pretty effectively since it doesn't have to do heavy lifting like calculating MU rating that we see in public matches.
5.
One of this biggest mistakes I made on CPM was trusting that a player market would soon follow the initial deployment of LP payouts instead of ISK in FW. This has been partially corrected with the reintroduction of ISK to FW. We still don't have trading of FW items well over a year after LP was implemented (APEX suit trading coming soon TM?).
My biggest problem with 8 + 8 is that it doesn't open up the accessibility of team deploy to those outside corps and those in custom player channels. In order to execute a team deploy you would still be force to coms up in a channel an do a countdown and deployment just like we have today. All 8 + 8 does is reduce the hassle to current players that sync rather than opening up team deploy to those that have no idea how the mechanic works.
This is situation where I would rather CCP get the numbers on full team deploy first and then walk it back if needed. I'm fairly confident that it would increase the viability of the game mode rather than hinder it. There is of-course no way to be 100% sure until it's actually implemented. Since you already have q-sycs running for hours on end I don't see this vast danger in implementation that some in this thread would have you think would be the case. We already have team deploy it just lacks an in-game UI.
Since we already have this syncing CCP has all the data in world IMO regarding syncs run out of corp chats and player channels. 8 + 8 would just be more of the same. It's time to see what the effect is when you allow a full team to be dynamically created without these hindrances in the squad finder.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.02 14:06:00 -
[58] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:
As to the second point, a single minute spent writing code to get this done would be a waste while we still have the Gal Lag Facility in the rotation.
Both take about the same amount of effort according to you, but team deploy needs to happen right now?
I would say have a dev finish off both of these changes while finishing a cup of coffee. I think that'd make for quite a productive cup of joe! 
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.02 14:16:00 -
[59] - Quote
Lol, Attorney. You actually make yourself look like a fool here.
I'm not sure how many different ways I can say it, but let me see if this gets through:
Any syncing that goes on now will continue to go on whether there are 8 man squads or heck even if there were just 4 man fire teams in FW. The lack of team deploy only hurts those that don't know about the mechanic and allows syncs to exist in the environment unmolested by the prevalence of other syncs.
This is about increasing the quality of matches in the game mode. I swear I could make a killing on selling tin foil with just you and deezy.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.02 14:44:00 -
[60] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Kain Spero wrote:We already have team deploy it just lacks an in-game UI. @ Kain Spero, SirManBoy, Juno Tristan Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. One last rhetorical question in response to the point above and a potential request.
Is it not true that FW q-syncs fail on occasion? And on those occasions, do the "non-party" players who've been waiting in line for FW (for potentially long periods) get into a match? As I understand it, this is the case today and it would not be the case if those q-syncing did in fact have the equivalent of team deploy. If a team deploy UI existed, 32-man syncs would "skip the line" altogether as they effectively create their own matches. Meanwhile, the assorted lego blocks in queue would likely remain in queue until other blocks of perfect, complementary size queued alongside them. I haven't read Leither's or Wikipedia's theories on this, but I seriously doubt that at current headcounts these "perfect storms" would happen in a timely fashion. Unexplained, perpetual queues would make for an extremely poor UX.
Assuming Team Deploy is supported:
Request
* A Squad Leader cannot queue for FW until he has a full squad of 8 or a full platoon of 16.
* The option to queue for FW is disabled to fireteams or partially filled squads/platoons.
* Players without squad are permitted to queue for FW to fill the singular gaps left by disconnect, leaving battle, etc.
* Players without squad are prompted with an "enter at your own risk" warning when they enter FW queue.
C'mon you know I'm likely to answer even if you flag it as rhetorical.
When q-syncs fail it's more of the parties end up in different matches. This can be seen in when a q-sync fails we'll cancel out to pick up the lost squad(s) and then deploy again into another match shorty afterwards. The timing of this could be shorter or longer depending on the pool of players currently in FW.
Again, there would only be so many 16 man groups and what you describe is the system doing it's best to actually make sure the 16 man groups fight each other as best it can and create numerically competitive matches in a timely fashion. For what the exact wait times and effects will be we can use observational evidence from what we've experienced so far with q-syncs running in FW, but there is no way to model exactly what will occur since we lack a lot of concrete numbers like the average FW player pool for each faction pair, average group sizing, number of solo queuing players, etc.
In order to ensure that everyone gets slotted in you actually wouldn't want to force deployment of groups at a certain sizes IMO. The team builder for FW will be much more efficient and make use of solo players queuing to ensure teams end up with 16 v 16.
I think that solo queuing players having a warning when joining FW would make a lot of sense. It reminds me a lot of the warning you get in Eve when jumping into Low Sec. That said I don't think that is something that should delay the addition of team deploy in the current environment.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
|
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.02 16:35:00 -
[61] - Quote
Deezy your examples are all flawed and full of bias in order to provide support for your hypothesis. Unless you magically have the actual numbers of players queuing for FW over some period of time there is no way for you to effectively model the system. By all means though keep wasting time coming up with fantasy scenarios.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.02 20:55:00 -
[62] - Quote
Attorney General, I know you don't like me and that's fine. That you would turn personal feelings against me into some sort of grounds to start some tin foil parade against a systems that would help players realize a multi-year dream is hilarious.
Please explain to me in detail how team deploy can be exploited any differently than 4 eight-man squads on coms in a custom channel selecting two opposing factions and syncing?
Also, please explain to me in detail how you perceive these matches would be exploited given that CCP has policies against boosting and 32 players attempting to do so would be red flagged.
Please explain to me in detail how this group would magically bypass the SP thresholds per match CCP has put in place, the 150 clone limit for each side in a match that determines the maximum amount of equipment that can be destroyed, or the progressive reduction in ISK value of BPOs such as LAVs whose destruction CCP tracks and whose value would be reduced further if they detected outliers in the system?
Also, I'd like to thank your persistence in ensuring that this topic stays on the front page of the forums. This issue's visibility to the community is paramount. 
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.03 01:01:00 -
[63] - Quote
PARKOUR PRACTIONER wrote:
One word; patience.
I think over two years waiting for implementation is patience enough.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.03 02:15:00 -
[64] - Quote
thor424 wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Imp Smash wrote:
But outside of THAT -- I think FW and up should be a full on free for all.
Hadn't considered no-squad as an alternative option to 8-man vs 16-man debate; could make for some interesting FW fights. Can't imagine the Team Deploy crowd getting behind this though.  If it was an option sure, but I'll never understand why soloist want to COD up Dust when they could just go play one of the many solo FPS games. At least I'll say, why are they vocal about not being overly successful solo in a team based game.
If any game mode were to be made solo only it'd be Ambush I think.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.03 11:32:00 -
[65] - Quote
KTM, I think Adipem Nothi put it well that you should just warn solo players what they are about to get into when joining FW.
Essentially that It's a more organized mode and it's recommended that you bring a fire team, but you won't be blocked from making a choice for yourself to ignore the warning.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.03 12:36:00 -
[66] - Quote
Actually our syncs are fairly open.
KTM, explain me this though. If 4 our of 5 instant deployment game modes are geared towards solo and small group play why does the 5th need to be as well?
Also, if I can make a sync fairly easily now and it'll be even easier with 8 man squads how do you see me wanted to INCREASE the number of syncs that I face as me trying to stomp teams of randoms?
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.03 15:29:00 -
[67] - Quote
General Mosquito wrote:Bright Cloud wrote:
With uneven matches i mean 6vs15 etc. as we all probs allready experienced. If you are on the receiving end of that pub match you wont win regardless what you do.
And unless the q syncers are horrible, 16 in a team versus an 8 squad and 8 randoms is almost an assured win for the 16 in a team deploy. When the 8 squad sees they are overmatched, they back out and its 16 in a team versus 8 randoms and whoever fills in.
I can tell you that a 16 man sync guaranteeing victory is completely false. We had a collection of random unsynced squads ((5 NF, 6 B.A.L.A, 3 Hellstorm, 1 Project Killer, and 1 corpless) that ended up going against the State Task Fore q-sync and ended up winning.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.03 15:37:00 -
[68] - Quote
General Mosquito. I want you to answer a couple questions. You realize than I can run a 16 man sync right now with little to no trouble right for hours on end?
Secondly, as the number of full teams or large squads in the FW pool raises the probability of a sync facing another sync does what?
As you said if we "turn it into 16 man syncs all day" what would the other team deployments be fighting?
I would like you to take into account that the team builder for FW prioritizes larger groups when making your assessment of these questions.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 01:45:00 -
[69] - Quote
Parkour 4 out of 5 instant game modes are having squad size reduced for the express reason of helping the little guy. It isn't unreasonable to ask that one out of 5 instant deployment game modes be more geared towards teams.
Also FW will still be 16 v 16 the addition is currently just adding 8 man squads which will make it easier for current q-syncs to operate but it won't democratize the system of team deploy to those without corp channels or custom player channels voicing a sync.
Social groups are one of Dust's strongest points and easing the ability for those not in the know about syncing to run a full team instantly would strengthen those social groups which increases player retention.
Also, you forget that a solo player wiil be able to just open up squad finder and join a platoon or start one themselves.
Last, you understand we have 16 man syncs right now correct?
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.04 10:25:00 -
[70] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:Bright Cloud wrote:
Forget about him hes probs jealous that he missed out of the free ISK and now hes seeking for revenge with stupid arguments that have no substance to them.
No substance when I have very clearly shown out to not only farm a crazy amount of SP but also how to give yourself a very clear advantage in PC is quite funny. I am also very far from needing ISK and have not needed ISK since about 2 weeks after I started this game.
You predict this apocalypse yet fail to cite how 8+8 is comparatively different than having team deploy for those groups that are already organized?
You then ignore that CCP has policies against boosting, already has code in place to limit the practice, and then ignore that this exploit you carry on about actually involves 32 people having to do something extremely boring.
I'm sorry but your argument doesn't hold water and is grasping at straws at best. Especially given restricting team deploy doesn't do anything to prevent your fantasy land cries of the sky is falling.
If you are going to come up with an argument the least you could do is use something that actually has logic behind it rather than loaded with paranoia tied to your bias and dislike of certain entities.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
|
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.05 16:40:00 -
[71] - Quote
Deezy, again with this whole locked door thing. As long as their is a rolling popluation in FW matches keep spawning.
Also on the matter of Lego pieces not fitting and that whole pick a number nonsense. Leither was kind enough do some math:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/84423423/computer_login_how_to.pdf
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.05 16:54:00 -
[72] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:If autosquad paired noobs to vets, then yes, the noobs would benefit. Right up until those mixed squads get tired of getting wrecked by proper squads. We end up with more of the same; stomp or be stomped with a touch of "well, we tried". Like with squadfinder.
We can do better than this. For newberries to thrive, NPE needs more of a safe zone.
Edit: And for bacon's sake, don't try to pin Dust's woes on soloists. They buy AUR and play the game like everyone else, and they have absolutely nothing to do with Dust's problems. (* not directed at Aeon).
Again solo players will always have their place in the system. We just have to remember that at the end of the day DUST is very focused on playing as a team and players should be encouraged and funneled into grouping up over time. It really is one of the keys to retaining players.
Auto squading in pubs and maybe even FW would help I think. It's important that we create places for solo players to thrive the same as we create areas in the game for team play and groups to take a higher precedence.
That's really the crux of the issue and it's going to come down to your personal opinion. For me the reduction in squad size was vital and makes it where Pub skirm, acq, dom, and ambush serve that role for incubating small groups and giving solo players a a place to enjoy DUST514 balanced by matchmaking and the 4 man fire team limit.
That said once you leave high sec and it's 4 game modes and enter lowsec and the game mode of FW that emphasis on small groups and solo players should fall by the wayside with the emphasis put on players organizing themselves into fire teams, squads, and platoons. While the 4 public game modes incubate players starting out then FW serves as the mode for incubating larger groups including corps.
With this being the case larger and more organized groups are pulled away from public play which then gives further breathing room to the less organized players. Solo players can of course enter FW, but should do so at their own risk.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.05 17:24:00 -
[73] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Fun math. Which variable represents time? Or are we assuming infinite time?
You'd have to ask Leither to be sure, but from what I understand this looks at the probability of success at a specific moment in time. As others then join into the queue you then run another round using what Leither drew up. At it's core though the indication is that Deezy's issues with the team builder breaking down are not based in any kind of real math.
There is weight given to when you queue and how many you queue, but we'd have to drag Nullarbor away from Eve for exact weighting. Needless to say in the discussions I've had with CPM the actually queuing happening was never a concern using a one FW queue system.
What did become a concern is if the FW queue was broken into two queues where solo players got put in their own FW box in order to protect them from going against players forming fireteams, squads, and platoons.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.05 19:25:00 -
[74] - Quote
What baffles me is the flawed logic behind the anti-team deploy position. It's like people took pills to make them forget that we already have a team deploy system in place.
It's really starting to seem like the folks that don't want more competition are those that refuse to give the community the tools to make their own groups easily. I've said it before and I'll say it again 8+8 doesn't effect the current people such as myself that run syncs. It only makes it easier, but it doesn't solve key problems like needing to sync via voice or allowing teams to search more than two factions at a time.
I want more teams floating around in FW to increase the quality of the matches and to make it where corps can build themselves up so they can compete in FW should the so choose. I'm sorry but the solo crowd trying to monopolize all 5 instant deploy game modes seems like short-sighted selfishness.
On top of this the Dust community has been asking for a way to instantly deploy teams for years. 8+8 will solve the problem for the most part for the elite crowd, but leaves those less knowledgeable about syncing in the dirt. Again, since we already have 16 man team deploy via q-syncs why not codify it?
The queue nonsense is just that and forcing players to have complete sets of 4, 8, or 16 is silly concept since the player population and natural variation in how many people have in their groups will solve the team builder issue just as it does today.
The only argument that has any merit and the only one in discussion by CCP and CPM with any seriousness is as follows: should a 16 man unit be allowed to fight against a variation of a 16 man unit (8x2, 8x1+4x2, 4x4, 4x1 +1x12, etc.)?
The rest of these arguments are quite frankly a load of garbage that clouds the actual issue.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.05 20:10:00 -
[75] - Quote
Again, I was present when CCP set up team deploy as it stands in FW. I know for a fact that it was intentional. This has been stated publicly by CCP on a few occasions including fanfest round tables etc. so it isn't some gotcha moment.
The matchmaker that was removed was for public matches and had nothing to do with Faction Warfare which is a separate system.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.05 20:15:00 -
[76] - Quote
How can I reveal something that's been known publicly about for years and been utilized by the FW community accordingly? Please can you drop your straw man arguments?
"The only argument that has any merit and the only one in discussion by CCP and CPM with any seriousness is as follows: should a 16 man unit be allowed to fight against a variation of a 16 man unit (8x2, 8x1+4x2, 4x4, 4x1 +1x12, etc.)?"
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
|
Posted - 2015.07.05 21:33:00 -
[77] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:
Before someone tries to say it:
Not once have I argued against team deploy in this thread. I have argued against just throwing it into the current system as fast as possible without even thinking about what else needs to be there besides " a UI change " as Kain claims is all that is needed.
Well, then after all this argument it's good to know that we all basically support team deployment then.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
|
|
|
| |
|